🎙️ Diving back into the gerrymandering / redistricting wars and the so-called "war on democracy." Is it a real war or political hyperbole? Corey unpacks recent redistricting efforts in Texas and California, confronts ethical and legal questions, and most importantly, discusses how we talk about these issues — especially when we disagree.
From institutional norms to California’s independent redistricting commission, we'll look at a nuanced, principled stance while challenging the increasingly combative political discourse. This episode is a rallying cry for more respectful, informed, and constructive conversations. ☕🗣️
⏰ Timestamps & Topics
[00:00:00] – Hyperbolic intros & the “war” framing
[00:01:00] – Texas redistricting: legal, ethical, wise?
[00:05:00] – Comparing Texas to California’s independent commission
[00:07:00] – Is it gerrymandering or “dummymandering”?
[00:10:00] – Corey’s personal impact from redistricting lines
[00:12:00] – CalExit? Exploring state-level autonomy
[00:15:00] – What makes responses democratic vs. anti-democratic
[00:17:00] – Instead of war: How about winning votes?
[00:18:00] – Latinx & language: When messaging backfires
[00:21:00] – Listener pushback: From “coward” to “wet noodle”
[00:26:00] – Political warfare and dehumanizing rhetoric
[00:30:00] – The danger of escalating political language
[00:32:00] – What Corey is willing to risk for peace and democracy
[00:33:00] – Final thoughts: Talk politics with gentleness and respect
💡 Key Takeaways
Legal ≠ Ethical ≠ Wise: Just because something is legal, like Texas’ mid-decade redistricting, doesn’t mean it’s ethical or wise.
Independent commissions work: California's model, while imperfect, supports representative democracy and reduces partisan gerrymandering.
Respectful discourse is essential: Hyperbolic rhetoric (“war,” “enemies,” “fascists”) hinders progress and dehumanizes fellow citizens.
Real change comes from persuasion: Winning hearts, minds, and votes is more sustainable than retaliatory political tactics.
Corey’s core belief: Anti-democratic actions shouldn't be met with more anti-democratic responses.
🔊 Notable Quotes
“If everything's an existential threat, nothing's an existential threat.”
“We need to be able to talk to our neighbors, talk to our friends, talk to our loved ones that happen to feel differently about this issue.”
“You want to be right, or do you want to win?”
“I am betting on conversations — at coffee shops, over drinks, at soccer games — to preserve our democracy.”
📣 Calls to Action:
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Dr. Terence Lester on overcoming poverty, confronting systemic racism in education, and how we can show up for students our schools are failing.
Introduction:Dr. Terence Lester is an activist, speaker, professor, and founder of Love Beyond Walls, a nonprofit focused on raising awareness about poverty and homelessness. Dr. Lester shares his remarkable story—from dropping out of high school to earning a doctorate—and how personal experience shapes his advocacy. We dive deep into the topics of systemic injustice, education, faith, and what it truly means to be present with those on the margins.
What We Discuss:
How Dr. Lester’s personal journey fuels his mission
The impact of educational redlining and systemic inequality
How faith, mentors, and community shaped his life
What churches and individuals can do to respond to injustice
How to build proximity and empathy across differences
Episode Highlights:
[00:01:00] Dr. Lester reflects on living in gratitude and grief at once
[00:05:00] The dismantling of Black history and language in public discourse
[00:10:00] How policy and redlining impacted Dr. Lester’s childhood neighborhood
[00:15:00] A teacher named Ms. West sees his potential and changes his life
[00:23:00] Mr. Moore tells Dr. Lester, “One day you’ll be a leader”
[00:31:00] His grandmother and the spiritual foundation of faith in a historic Black church
[00:36:00] A night in jail becomes a turning point in his faith journey
[00:46:00] What the church is missing—and what it could become
[00:54:00] How we can all build relationships across differences
Featured Quotes:“Sometimes people have to borrow your courage.” – Dr. Terence Lester“Distance is the enemy of belonging.” – Dr. Terence Lester“You never know how far I’ve traveled to be here—and I’m not talking about geography.” – Dr. Terence Lester“If you preach from your life’s text, you’ll never run out of material.” – Dr. Lester, quoting his Bible professor
Resources Mentioned:
Love Beyond Walls: www.lovebeyondwalls.org
From Dropout to Doctorate: www.ivpress.com/from-dropout-to-doctorate
Dr. Lester on IG: www.instagram.com/imterencelester
Dr. Lester's website: terencelester.com
📣 Calls to Action:
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Not Right. Not Left. Not Crazy. Just Real Talk About Politics and People. 43% of Us Aren’t Partisan Left or Right. This Episode Is for You.
Reflecting on what it means to be politically independent in a time of increasing polarization. Drawing on personal stories and hot-button issues like Israel/Palestine, redistricting, and public safety, host Corey Nathan makes a compelling case for the 43% of Americans who don’t fully align with the far right or progressive left—and offers guidance on how we can still talk to each other with grace and clarity.
What Is Discussed:
The 3 main categories of political identity in America
Why a plurality of us fall into a misunderstood, complex “middle”
How to approach political conversations without labeling
What really motivates voters—and why economic messaging matters
Practical ways to connect across divides without compromising your values
Episode Highlights:
[00:02:00] Defining the “three buckets”: partisan right, left, and the independent middle
[00:06:30] Mislabeling in political debates – a story about Israel and being misunderstood
[00:12:00] How to hold multiple truths in the Israel/Palestine conflict
[00:15:00] On crime, Trump, and false binaries
[00:19:30] Redistricting in Texas—and why legal doesn’t mean ethical
[00:23:00] Why cost of living, not slogans, will decide 2026 & 2028 elections
[00:27:00] Do’s & don’ts for meaningful political conversations
[00:33:00] Learning from mistakes and leading with respect
Featured Quotes:🗣️ “Go in with the goal of connecting, not convincing.” – Corey Nathan🗣️ “The world is not black and white. The world is not Democrat or Republican.” – Corey Nathan🗣️ “Just because we don't agree with your particular orthodoxy doesn't mean we're part of the other side.” – Corey Nathan
📣 Calls to Action:
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Exposing the New Apostolic Reformation's anti-democratic Seven Mountain Mandate and its profound impact on Christian nationalism, urging a return to interreligious dialogue and Jesus' core teachings to rehumanize faith and defend liberal democracy - we're joined by Dr. Matthew D. Taylor to discuss all this and more.
Dr. Matthew D. Taylor is a leading scholar and practitioner in interfaith dialogue and a fierce advocate for pluralism in American society who holds a Ph.D. in Theological and Religious Studies with a focus on comparative religion and modern radical movements within both Christianity and Islam. He currently serves at the Institute for Islamic, Christian, and Jewish Studies in Baltimore, where he works to dismantle antisemitism, Islamophobia, and Christian nationalism. Together, Corey and Matt explore the evolution of evangelicalism, the rise of Christian nationalism, the dangerous theology of the New Apostolic Reformation, and the crucial role of pluralistic democracy in a divided America.
What We Discuss:
Why Dr. Taylor left evangelicalism and what drew him to interfaith dialogue
The alarming growth and influence of the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR)
How NAR theology is shaping U.S. politics and threatening democracy
The distinction between liberal and illiberal democracy
How to rehumanize political and religious discourse in polarized environments
What Christians can do to confront authoritarianism from within their own communities
Episode Highlights:[00:01:00] Dr. Taylor’s evangelical roots and why he left the movement[00:05:00] From aspiring missionary to interfaith scholar: Matt’s pivotal moment in Turkey[00:15:00] Understanding spiritual manipulation in evangelical circles[00:25:00] Introducing the New Apostolic Reformation and the Seven Mountain Mandate[00:37:00] How Christian nationalism is reshaping America’s political landscape[00:45:00] Trump, prophecy, and the theological foundations of MAGA[00:54:00] What liberal democracy means—and why it’s at risk in the U.S.[01:03:00] A call for Christians to speak theologically against authoritarianism
Featured Quotes:
"If the propaganda is theological, the response has to be theological." — Dr. Matthew D. Taylor
"We need to improve the quality of our disagreements." — Dr. Matthew D. Taylor
"Right now, the propaganda holding MAGA together is theological—and Christians have a responsibility to speak into that." — Dr. Matthew D. Taylor
"Jesus didn’t come to empower Christians to take power over others—he came to teach us to lay it down." — Dr. Matthew D. Taylor
Resources Mentioned:
Dr. Taylor's book, The Violent Take It by Force: icjs.org/the-violent-take-it-by-force
Institute for Islamic, Christian, and Jewish Studies: icjs.org
Matthew D. Taylor on Substack: substack.com/@matthewdtaylor
📣 Calls to Action:
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Principles, Polarization, and the Perils of Partisan Shaming.
Let's dive into the heated “Redistricting Wars” in Texas, California, and other states. Using David French’s framework of “Is it legal? Is it ethical? Is it wise?”, Corey examines the legal, moral, and strategic angles of mid-decade redistricting.
From explaining the political strategies behind Texas’s proposed map changes to defending California’s independent redistricting commissions, Corey makes the case for more competitive, purple districts. He also shares a candid and sometimes heated social media exchange about whether sticking to democratic principles is the right approach when political opponents “fight dirty.”
*CORRECTION: Corey incorrectly referred to a conversation with Dr. Matthew D. Taylor. Corey incorrectly stated his first name as Michael instead of Matthew.
What Is Discussed:
Why Texas’s mid-decade redistricting is technically legal but ethically questionable
How California’s independent commissions foster competitive districts
The strategic risks of over-gerrymandering
The dangers of toxic partisanship and abandoning core principles
Why persuasion works better than shaming in political discourse
Episode highlights:
[00:02:00] Applying the “legal, ethical, wise” framework to Texas’s actions
[00:04:00] Why breaking redistricting norms is dangerous
[00:07:00] Why Corey doubts Texas will gain five seats through gerrymandering
[00:08:00] California’s purple districts and independent commissions
[00:12:00] Polling on overturning California’s commission system
[00:14:00] A revealing online exchange about principles vs. partisanship
[00:21:00] The problem with labeling all Trump voters as enemies of democracy
[00:27:00] Sticking to nonviolent, principled engagement during political urgency
[00:33:00] Why respectful persuasion beats moral grandstanding
Featured quotes:
“Is it legal? Is it ethical? Is it wise? That’s how I’m looking at this whole thing.”
“We need more purple districts—places where voters have to talk to each other, not just live in partisan silos.”
“We don’t abandon our principles when it’s convenient or when we think it’s urgent.”
“If your approach is to shame people into agreeing with you, you’re not persuading anyone—you’re pushing them away.”
Resources mentioned:
Reuters article on Texas redistricting fight: www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-led-texas-redistricting-gambit-ignites-national-arms-race-control-congress-2025-08-05/
Politicology with Ron Steslow and Mike Madrid: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cartographic-warfare-the-weekly/id1514968525?i=1000721241146
📣 Calls to Action:
✅ TELL A FRIEND ABOUT TP&R!!! Bring more folks into the conversation.
✅ Subscribe to Talkin' Politics & Religion Without Killin' Each Other on your favorite podcast platform.
✅ Leave a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen: ratethispodcast.com/goodfaithpolitics
✅ Check out our substack: coreysnathan.substack.com
✅ Watch the full conversation and subscribe on YouTube: youtube.com/@politicsandreligion
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What happened between the election of the first black president in 2008 and the reelection of Donald Trump in 2024 that's led to "the age of certainty and the demise of discourse"? Well, as the brilliant writer Thomas Chatterton Williams recounts in his new book, there was the SUMMER OF OUR DISCONTENT.
In this episode, we get to sit down with Thomas—staff writer at The Atlantic and also author of Losing My Cool and Self-Portrait in Black and White. We explore race, identity, cancel culture, and the importance of preserving liberal values in a polarized society.
What We Discuss:
How Thomas’s biracial upbringing shapes his worldview
The story behind the “Letter on Justice and Open Debate” in Harper's
What happened with the Poetry Foundation and cancel culture
Why “moral clarity” can be dangerous when journalism becomes activism
How 2020’s protests shaped national politics and the rise of MAGA
Episode Highlights:
[00:01:00] Thomas shares the story of his parents’ interracial marriage
[00:07:00] Growing up in a household full of debate and thick skin
[00:09:00] Drafting and publishing the Harper’s letter and its backlash
[00:13:00] The Poetry Foundation controversy and institutional capture
[00:25:00] Why “moral clarity” fails when we don’t agree on morality
[00:39:00] The link between 2020 protests and January 6th
[00:45:00] Can Democrats win the center—and what candidates can break through?
[00:48:00] The toxic effects of social media on how we see each other
Featured Quotes:
"You can't really have social justice without tolerance for viewpoint diversity." – Thomas Chatterton Williams
"No one agrees on what’s morally clear. That’s why objectivity still matters." – Thomas Chatterton Williams
"People don't talk that way in person. Social media strips us of our ability to imagine someone’s humanity." – Corey Nathan
Resources Mentioned:
The Summer of Our Discontent by Thomas Chatterton Williams: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/704632/summer-of-our-discontent-by-thomas-chatterton-williams/
Harper’s Letter: https://harpers.org/a-letter-on-justice-and-open-debate/
Thomas’s work at The Atlantic: https://www.theatlantic.com/author/thomas-chatterton-williams/
Thomas on IG: www.instagram.com/chattertonwilliams
Thomas on Twitter: x.com/thomaschattwill
📣 Calls to Action:
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✅ Leave a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen: ratethispodcast.com/goodfaithpolitics
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How Did We Get Here? From Outrage to Applauding Atrocity
In this edition, host Corey Nathan offers a timely and deeply personal reflection on a disturbing trend in society: the growing tendency to dehumanize one another. We unpack two tragic incidents that sparked widespread and even celebratory reactions online—mass murders of corporate executives—and explore what these reactions say about our collective soul. Using real-life examples, scriptural references, and philosophical insights, the challenge is to consider how we might reclaim our shared humanity.
What Is Discussed:
How online culture enables dehumanization and moral numbness
The emotional and spiritual toll of celebrating harm toward others
Practical ways to recognize and preserve each other's humanity
The concept of Imago Dei and how it applies in daily life, even beyond religious contexts
How to model grace and kindness, even in the face of hostility
Episode Highlights:
[00:02:00] — Corey introduces the idea of a “vicious cycle” of dehumanization and how it suffocates our soul and hardens our hearts
[00:04:00] — The story of Wesley LePatner, CEO of Blackstone Real Estate Income Trust and the horrifying online reactions to her murder
[00:08:00] — The “Free Luigi” movement and how the celebration of violence has become normalized
[00:13:00] — A personal experience with a vile online comment and the power of grace in response
[00:18:00] — Explanation of “online disinhibition” and echo chambers as systemic drivers of dehumanization
[00:24:00] — Introduction of Imago Dei and secular philosophies that affirm basic human dignity
[00:29:00] — How Corey chose to respond thoughtfully rather than react angrily to an offensive comment
[00:34:00] — A call to action: practical steps to disrupt the cycle of dehumanization in our personal lives and broader discourse
Resources Mentioned:
Maya Sulkin’s piece in The Free Press
PIX11 News coverage of NYC mass shooting of 7/28/25
Charlie Warzel’s article in The Atlantic on Luigi Mangione
📣 Calls to Action:
✅ TELL A FRIEND ABOUT TP&R!!! Bring more folks into the conversation.
✅ Subscribe to Talkin' Politics & Religion Without Killin' Each Other on your favorite podcast platform.
✅ Leave a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen: ratethispodcast.com/goodfaithpolitics
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✅ Watch the full conversation and subscribe on YouTube: youtube.com/@politicsandreligion
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What if ICE visits our church? How are we doing after the LA Fires? And how can the Church help to rebuild and heal?
In this heartfelt episode of Talkin’ Politics & Religion Without Killin’ Each Other, host Corey Nathan welcomes back the Reverend Dr. Matt Colwell, Senior Pastor of Knox Presbyterian Church in Pasadena, CA. A theologian, author, and community leader, Matt opens up about losing his home in the devastating Eaton Fire, his deeply personal approach to immigrant justice, and the evolving role of the Church in times of social and political crisis. A long-time friend and spiritual guide to Corey, Matt shares how Scripture and lived experience converge to shape his ministry and public witness.
What We Discuss:
How the Eaton Fire profoundly impacted Pastor Matt and his congregation
What it looks like for a church to take a public stand on immigration and ICE enforcement
The intersection of Scripture, politics, and social ethics in Matt’s faith journey
Why churches are legally preparing for ICE visits—and how they’re doing it
The essential role of community, memory, and physical space in recovering from trauma
Strategies for engaging in tough conversations across ideological lines
Episode Highlights:[00:01:00] Matt opens up about life after losing his home in the Eaton Fire[00:03:00] How experiences in Guatemala and seminary shaped Matt’s understanding of faith and justice[00:07:00] Corey and Matt explore deriving political views from scripture and the ethical challenge of self-trust[00:14:00] Book recommendations: Lincoln’s Greatest Speech, The Dearly Beloved, and more[00:18:00] The emotional aftermath of losing a home and the power of community response[00:31:00] What the grieving process looks like when you lose not just a house, but identity-defining memories[00:42:00] ICE visits to churches in Downey prompt new sanctuary policies at Knox Presbyterian[00:47:00] How the church legally designated private spaces to protect undocumented individuals[01:03:00] Corey’s candid reflection on preparing emotionally for hard political and religious conversations
Featured Quotes:"When a pillar is pulled out from under you, it’s powerful to feel like God is present—and the church community is present." – Rev. Dr. Matt Colwell"I don’t trust myself either. That’s why I need to hear different voices and read Scripture in community." – Rev. Dr. Matt Colwell"I prepare for difficult conversations by rehearsing a mindset—not what I’ll say, but how I’ll listen." – Corey Nathan"It’s not just stuff—it’s tied to relationships. Losing those memories feels like losing part of your identity." – Rev. Dr. Matt Colwell
Resources Mentioned:
Our God is Undocumented by Ched Myers and Matthew Colwell: orbisbooks.com/products/our-god-is-undocumented
Knox Presbyterian Church, Pasadena: knoxpasadena.org
Pastor Matt goes viral: www.instagram.com/p/DLP84OWM-4c/
Clergy and Laity United for Economic Justice: www.cluejustice.org
📣 Calls to Action:
✅ TELL A FRIEND ABOUT TP&R!!! Bring more folks into the conversation.
✅ Subscribe to Talkin' Politics & Religion Without Killin' Each Other on your favorite podcast platform.
✅ Leave a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen: ratethispodcast.com/goodfaithpolitics
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